14th January 2016
Conversations about Revival and Prayer,
between Rev Ted Curnow and Rev Robert Evans
1 Nov 2015 from Ted
Now that the dust has settled a little, I have time to briefly take the pen and collect a few thoughts that you may find of interest. I realise that probably most of my thoughts will hardly be new to you Robert because you are much more specialised and well-read in the whole area of religious revival than I am.
The Launch
The launch of my magnum opus was an exciting day indeed and we just soaked up the celebration. For both Beryl and myself it was a grand reunion with many long-term SA friends. The arranged greeting from Prof. David Bebbington of Scotland was really great and I learnt recently that he had been in Australia earlier in the year and called on the Centre for Public Christianity (CPX) in NSW. Re our changing culture Bebbington had recently said, ---“The primary question for people today regarding Christianity is not, Is it true? --- but is it good?” Very perceptive comment amid the anti-religious/secular tone of the days in which we live. I have now had time to read his very comprehensive chapter on the Moonta revival and I appreciate his scholarly work -- so thanks for the introduction Robert.
The Evolution
I find myself fascinated by what I would call the evolution of revivalism. When I started my writing I was curious about the often repeated term ‘protracted’ meetings. I understood what it meant but where did it come from? I have since realised that Finney used the term amid his new methods/ measures of evangelism. It appears that the BC’s had adopted Finney’s approach by the time they came to SA in 1850. (See Conversation Dec. 6th for a suggested later date.) This raises the question of when the concept and meaning of the word ‘revival’ began to change. For me Christian revival means, --- a movement that can only be explained as a sovereign, intervening act of God that leads to a contagious out pouring of the Holy Spirit. This outpouring deeply convicted, then overwhelmingly convinced people of their new, right standing with God. It was a spiritual phenomenon that radically transformed the lives of individuals and in some cases whole communities for the better. It was not a socially engineered thing or a human concoction but a spontaneous breaking-in of God’s transforming action. Finney was obviously more Arminian than this and focused in on the importance of human choice, thus he began the shift towards a modern programmed understanding.
Prevailing Prayer
I was a bit surprised by the priority you gave to a what seemed to be an intense search for references to prayer in the text that I had written up. In understanding revival, I had certainly already concluded that pray was an essential ingredient to revival and I recognised that all traces of this type of earnest, prevailing-prayer had been completely lost to the church of today. Bebbington has a great description in his book on page 205---“normally taciturn men were transformed in prayer, ‘the floodgates of their souls fly open and there is an outrushing in one continuous flow of words, sentiments and petitions.’” (Victorian Religious Revivals, David Bebbington, Oxford Press, Chapter, Tradition and Innovation, Revival in South Australia 1875. Also Meth. Journal March 1875)
I understood what you were saying in your launch talk when you said there were just faint glimpses of prevailing-prayer left in the period I had recorded. After stressing the importance of prayer at one point you exclaimed “and it worked.!!!” I was a bit surprised by your singular focus and emphasis here. True it was a very important feature of the early sovereign movement/revival but by saying ‘it worked’ made it sound mechanical --- like the Finney’s guarantee that prayer and protracted meetings etc, etc would actually bring a revival like turning on a tap. I am not that comfortable with that sort of enterprising suggestion or set a,b,c, formula.
As early as 1863 in my book on page 448 you point out that Burnett was using methods that were not familiar to S.A. Then Bebbington in his book on Page 119 talks of Moody and Sankey’s influence on the Moonta revival. Prevailing prayer was certainly an important part of the Welsh revival as late as 1904. Thinking certainly changed over the years but it appears to me that there was less spontaneity and reliance on the sovereign action of God. With good intention when we live in a spiritually dry and thirsty land the natural thing is to try to define how revivals happen and to want to duplicate it in the 21st century. - so I remind myself regularly, as important as prevailing pray is, that we cannot live on the memory of Christendom. For instance, we no longer have a consciousness or state of mind that knows how to engage in prolonged, robust, holy intercession that seemed to be one of those prerequisites to early revival. Like a spark that lights a fire there were always human-cultural factors involved in revivals like the accidental or untimely death of significant individuals. This with other conditions at the time in some way increased a consciousness of God or the reality of the after-life. Bebbington gives detail to all sorts of contributing factors in relation to Moonta. Of course we cannot reproduce the world of yesterday in order to twist God’s arm and to bring revival.
My book on page 471 describes the Bowden revival during the1880s. Hunt says it was a typical example of a classic revival in the 19th century. I can’t think of what he really meant by that because Rev. Kelly seemed to use the full range of Burnett’s methods and there seemed to be more human programming and effort than Sovereign Divine outpouring.
When it comes to revival I have concluded that we must allow space for what can only be explained as the mystery of God’s sovereign will and work. Jesus said, “You must be born from above. The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. John 3:7-8. It appears to me that there are periods in history when God seems to be a 1000 miles away and times when the Spirit of life and revival visits a nation, a city or region. There are times when God draws close to reveal himself in a special way through the circumstances of the day to transform and renew the church in a dying world.
The Today
Dr Stuart Robinson (he was at South Blackburn Baptist when we were at North Blackburn in the 1980s) who started Crossway Baptist Melbourne and who is now a roving international missionary leader recently addressed the Annual meeting of Family Voice. The occasion provided a platform for stories that the secular media choose to ignore. (perhaps suppress) Robinson recalled how in recent times in volatile Egypt a church based in a rubbish dump had grown to number 500,000 people. One Christian group in India had aimed to baptise 50,000 converts over 2 years. They recorded 80,000 in one year alone. By the year 2030 it is estimated that there will be 240 million Christians in China, this amounts to 19% of the population. Robinson did not use the word revival but what he described were extraordinary examples of God’s renewing movement and power at work in different parts of the world today. This is certainly different to the 19th century.
Robinson claims that there are three keys to explosive church growth in the times in which we live. Prayer, Persecution and Poverty. --- Hardly a welcome recipe for the comfortable, indolent church of the Western World, but after all it is God who has the final word on what life looks like and in His plan there are times of harvest and times of struggle.
Kirk Patston of Sydney Missionary and Bible College writes about Job and the fear associated with things that don’t fit our expectation of how things should be. We may prefer the familiar world of yesterday but it is how we handle the fear that comes when we realise we live in a different hostile world that counts. “When God speaks to Job, he describes a world where people are injured and dying. God doesn’t deny the danger but Job manages to sit with it with a sense of wonder.” Patston continues, “Can I trust myself to a God who is over and governing a world where there is cerebral palsy-- etc--can I take that fear and hand it to God to hold for me so that I become free of not being governed by it?
I think these are wise words relevant to our times. Then whenever I feel a bit overwhelmed by escalating change that appears to be out of control the words of Isaiah 43:19 seem to call me to think again. They urge me on to think beyond that familiar box to comprehend a bigger picture. “I am about to do a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?” This makes even the hard times an adventure to discover what God has for us next and perhaps it should fill us with a sense of awesome wonder.
11 Nov 2015 from Robert Evans
Since our last email I have thought many times again about what I said at the launch. The factor which I have thought repeatedly of as being extremely important - is that the Bible Christians had a key to the success of their work which we do not have at present - which is what I said at the launch. This is a message about the life and death of the church. I suppose my recent researches have emphasised this in my mind. Over the last six months and more I have been reading New Zealand Wesleyan newspapers from 1870 to 1900 trying to examine their evangelistic work, and the work in particular of one of the lay evangelists of the period - Mrs Joan Scott of Christchurch. It also involves the prevailing ideas about the role of women in the Wesleyan denomination at that time. She is a very interesting case, and saw an interesting degree of revival in her campaigns, perhaps more than many other better known evangelists. She seemed to have a degree of faith in God's promises that other people often did not have, and were surprised at when they saw it in her. (Methodist Evangelicalism in Nineteenth Century New Zealand, Robert Evan & Roy McKenzie, 2015.)
6 Dec 2015 from Ted C
Good Advent season greetings.
Thank you for “Methodist Evangelism in Nineteenth Century New Zealand.” and especially for the introduction spelling out the context---Heritage in Revivals. It was of interest to be introduced to Margaret Hampton, Mrs Andrew Scott and the Christchurch beginnings. I have always understood Christchurch as an Anglican mecca so again I’m on a learning curve. Thanks!
The background of revival movements in Cornwall with dates and places plus the sources like William Carvosso are of real particular interest. After two years in Cornwall and preaching in some of those places you listed I realise more and more that I have had the privilege travelling holy ground.
Changing Revival Style
Why did you pin-point 1862 as the year of change from revival movement to organise revival meetings? I agree that the Burra revival of 1859 was different in style from Moonta in 1875. Burra revival was more traditional of the ‘break-out’ kind. --- like Penzance in 1779 (see p 3.) On p5 you talk of the loss of the old revival fire although we know special prayer was always part of the Burnett, Taylor, Hampson meetings. (It was probably Thomas Shaw, The Bible Christians 1815-1907. Epworth Press 1965 p78-79 who suggested the 1862 date) Are you implying here that the old revival fire was directly linked to old prevailing prayer of earlier times?
Of the nine main Cornish revivals between 1781-1838 that took place in this old period. I wonder how many were Bible Christian? The BC’s were always radical when it came to innovation, (e.g. women preachers, Conf. Evangelists) and seemed ready to adopt change although you point out Methodists were generally not for gimmicks. Would you say BC’s were always on the pioneering edge of change? First perhaps in the UK to adopt Finney’s methods?
Prevailing Prayer. Your ref to the prayer ingredient occurs on p3, 5, 8, 10, 47, 48.
It appears to me that the early prevailing prayer that occurred in Penzance 1779, p3. p5 and that you point out ceased p 8 was linked to an era in history when socially people accepted the reality of God. The rise of education, sciences, evolution theory and higher criticism method all made an incredible impact on the public and the churches consciousness of God. The tension between reason/knowledge that ‘puffs up’ and bold faith that ‘calls down’ God’s presence and power was probably penetrating. The thirst for knowledge was very intense. This ‘enlightenment’ cannot be underestimated and it seems to have corresponded with the concept of orchestrated revivals. eg a style where people were more in control rather than living with the mystery where God could get out of hand.
While relating the past to the church of today a focus on exhorting people by saying that prayer is the lost key to modern revival we fail to recognise that we put the cart before the horse. We live in a secular world that has lost an ability to pray because it has lost a consciousness of an Almighty Sovereign God. (Romans 1:24 talks about God giving humanity up to its lostness.) You may say that consciousness of God is of no consequence to a Sovereign God who can intervene and override the hostility of a Saul of Tarsus on the Damascus road. It is true that God is Sovereign but the point we are making is that in the past He seems to have acted in a sovereign, revival way amid intense bouts of believing, prevailing prayer. This is illustrated in pages 47,48 where it is said that the key to Mrs Scott’s missions was prevailing prayer. She became a demonstration of relying upon God’s promises to answer specific prayer within a short time.
A Biblical Observation.
In the AP Magazine (Australian Presbyterian, Summer issue 2015) John McClean has written on “Prayer and Promises.” He claims that in the Bible prayer is consistently tied to God’s promises. He points to Daniel 9 where Daniel asks the Lord to do just what He had promised. Daniel appeals to God’s great mercy on the basis of the promise of Israel’s return from Exile (Jer. 29:10 -14.) He cries, “O lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord hear and act! (Daniel 9:18-19.) The prayer is a bold, demanding, prevailing prayer. Daniel’s prayer is based on the promise given to Jeremiah and the Lord uses Daniel’s prayer to fulfil the promise.
While I’m unsure that this pattern is explicitly taught in the Bible, McClean says this pattern is repeated over and over again. “In Matthew Jesus had already announced that the kingdom was near” (Matt 4:7) when he taught his disciples to pray that it would come. He also promised that the Father knows our needs and will provide but we are to ask for our daily bread.” etc. In Revelation we hear Jesus announcement “I am coming soon.” Then John prays, and teach us to pray, “Come, Lord Jesus.” Rev 22:20.“God’s people ask Him to do what He said He will do and, because they ask, He does it.” John Calvin observed this connection and pointed out that prayer is the way in which God has determine that we will receive what He has promised; “it is… by the benefit of prayer that we reach those riches which are laid up for us with the Heavenly Father.”
Calvin concluded: “To us nothing is promised from the Lord which we are not also bidden to ask of Him in prayer…we dig up by prayer the treasures that were pointed out by the Lord’s gospel, and which our faith has gazed upon.” (J Calvins Institutes 111.xx.2)
Today’s Example
Today I think the closest expression of this kind of praying is found in Pentecostalism. The pastor who is bold enough to believe that God wants to literally bring something to pass such as a physical healing, himself becomes a demonstration of believing prayer. He preaches/ teaches it and when it occurs the faith level of his congregation rises to embrace the mighty act of God. Perhaps it is within the Pentecostal expectation we can look for revival in our time.
8 Dec 2015 from Robert Evans
Whether revivals "broke out," or flowed from organise efforts such as later in the 19th century, often depends upon how people think and what they expect. The psychology changes with time. In our own day, the Pentecostals expect there to be tongues when the Spirit moves, and that
is how God often does it for them - though not always. In the late 19th century the Armenians’ especially thought of acting as soon as they saw signs of the Spirit moving, or they acted first and prayed and hoped the Spirit would support them. There are passing fads and fashions about
how people think, and how they expect God to work.
I know John McClean a little - he lives down the hill from here, but don't know the writing you refer to. (Mag. Australian Presbyterian, Prayer & Promises, Summer 2015, p9.) The Charismatic people did emphasise the prayer of faith a great deal, but I found that there was a lot of misunderstanding about whether God actually led them and taught them as they claimed he did, or whether they just felt a hunch and decided to believe something for which they really did not have proper evidence that it was God's will.
However, the interest in the prayer of faith is a real one, and came really from Finney's "Revival Lectures" published first in 1835, and has been influential ever since. (Ted’s comment: When you read Finney on Prevailing Prayer he supplies a list of conditions as long as your arm in order to avoid wrong prayer or abuse. For me this only seems to confirm the futility of thinking that we can get it right, twist God’s arm and engineer what must ultimately be a sovereign work of God)
16 Dec 2015 from Ted C
Thanks for yours. I understand it is difficult to draw a line between spontaneous revival and “organised” revival when prayer was always regarded as an essential ingredient (Armenian’s included) I can see I need to read more of Thomas Shaw. As you say there are prayer fads. Pentecostal’s vary greatly and not all insist on tongues---but they do highlight the importance of the prayer of faith. Even then I’m inclined to distinguish between asking petitionary prayers and prevailing prayer. The latter as I understand it being a bold, demanding, insistent exhortation often based on a given promise. Re seeking guidance, yes I have heard of gift of knowledge being explained as the first thought God brings to your mind after a prayer for guidance. Hmmm!
Pentecostal theology and practice varies but in general terms probably their vibrant style of prayer is the closest expression of 19th cent. revival prayer today. In general terms, very little spontaneous public prayer seems to exist in churches today.
We pray that the light that enlightens all people and that has overcome the darkness will shine on you this Christmas.
6 Jan 2016 from Ted C
Prevailing and Persistent Prayer.
Some summary points:
The repeated and very strong connection between revival: periods of spiritual awakening and the discipline of prayer has been well documented and established by many people over the years.
Whether revival came as a spontaneous ‘out-break’ or as it often did in the later part of the 19th century via a planned series of ‘protracted’ meetings revival was always associated with concentrated prayer.
There are special, times, seasons known only by Father God when, like ‘a wind blowing where it chooses’ the Holy Spirit visits nations or communities.
The outpouring of the Holy Spirit in revival then is always a sovereign act of God. Our manipulation or prayer programme cannot be regarded as a controlling trigger-method guaranteeing the onset of a revival.
However, in the history of the church there was a way of praying that has been described as ‘prevailing prayer’. Over succeeding generations this spirituality and way of praying has been completely lost to the culture of the church today.
God has always promised to honor the prayer of faith and probably the closest we can get to this forgotten practice and style of praying today is reflected in the tradition of the Pentecostal church.
Jesus told stories of the need for ‘persistent prayer’ (e.g. to stand firm to the end) Luke 11:8-10. and 18:1-8. The word persistence in English is milder than the original Greek word, ‘anaideia’. The translation could well be “shamelessness” or “over-boldness”.
Today the English word prevailing means not only to stand firm to the end but also to have the upper hand and to gain victory. This may describe the prayer cry of our fathers in the faith who constantly sought revival.
In both stories it is the friendship between the one in need and the supplier that determined how much one dared to ask and expect from the friendship. At the end of the story we find the question, “And yet when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” This verse seems to link payer and varying levels of faith on earth.
Could this mean that our fore-fathers lived in a world where their lives were lived in such a way that they knew a deeper spirituality, reverence and awareness of the transcendence of God? In knowing and believing that God answered prayer it seems they were bold to hold God to account and to his promises. If the irritated judge in Jesus story responded to an ordinary person’s bold request, then how much more will a gracious Heavenly Father respond to our bold prayer requests.
The Corrie ten Boon Way
Corrie ten Boon, the Dutch Christian who suffered persecution because she and her family helped hundreds of Jews escape the Nazis during World War 11, became one of the most ardent proclaimers of grace and forgiveness across Europe. After the war she kept busy and assisted fellow Dutchman Brother Andrew smuggle Bibles beyond Communist boarders. At times it seemed impossible to get the job done due to government restrictions and whistle-blowers. The lives of those involved were in constant danger.
When every door seemed closed, Brother Andrew, Corrie ten Boom and others would get together to pray without ceasing (1 Thess. 5:17), convinced that the Lord would break through the situation. Witnesses tell of Corrie’s boldness before the Lord. “Lord, you must do something!” she would pray. “There is no time to waste.” Then like a lawyer at a trial, she would quote God’s Word back to Him, finding the exact passage, and arguing that on the basis of His Word, He needed to respond! With her Bible up in the air, she would cry, “Here, Lord, read it yourself!”
This shows no disrespect before a Holy God. This is confidence in a Holy God because He is immensely pleased when we put our entire weight of trust in Him (Heb. 4:16, 11:6). Martyn Lloyd-Jones, writing on the burden of prayer says, “You will find this same holy boldness, this putting the case to God, pleading His own promises… Do not leave Him alone, pester Him, as it were with His own promises…saying, ‘In light of this can You refrain?’ It delights the heart of God.” (*)
This sort of praying filled with an urgent, passionate tenacity cannot be manufactured, it can only arise from an intimate faith relationship, a spirituality that has been tested and tried over time. It could be that God wants to speak into our secular ‘can-do’, ‘quick-fix’ mentality by pointing us to the heritage of our forefathers, and to a depth of trusting relationship built on a new quality of faith that can meet the pressures of our day, a faith that is bold, tough, expectant and that will last the distance.
(*) (Ron E. M. Clouzet, Ministry Magazine September 2011, p21. Martyn Lloyd Jones (Wheaton, Il: Crossway books 1987),81.
7 Jan 2016 from Robert Evans
Thank you for this document.
Excellent material from Corrie Ten Boon. It's all a part of the picture. Prevailing prayer firstly involves learning something about the will of God in the situation which is the subject of prayer. This must be taught by the Holy Spirit, and not be just our own desire or imagination. Then the Spirit must lead us regarding which promise from God to apply to that situation. It is easy to make a mistake here, and find that WE have chosen the promise in order to achieve what WE want, and that the will of God is actually something else of which we are ignorant. This is in part found in Finney's "Revival Lectures", in the chapter on "Prevailing prayer." Then comes Corrie - as your article describes.
It is also possible to fall into deception at any point here, as people can leave themselves open to having hunches which they think come from God, but in fact do not. We need protection through the blood of Christ. We need wisdom big time. Especially if people leave their minds open to any thoughts or feelings from outside themselves, and they are unprotected.
Deceptions like this are dealt with by Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts in "War on the Saints." I think a lot of deceptions in this area occurred in the Charismatic movement.
June 2016
Most grateful for your info about the Australian Prayer Network. I offer the following as an addition to our discussion some time back on prayer and revival. Thought you may appreciate!!! Regards Ted C.
Selwyn Hughes the devotional writer points out that rain does not fall haphazardly but in harmony with a great design. Hughes heard one meteorologist say that if his computer could be furnished with all the facts he wished to know concerning the movements of the weather, he could predict to a nicety where, when and in what proportions rain would fall.
He concluded, “ Although showers seem haphazard, behind the fall of every drop of rain there is the operation of a precise predetermined forces.” Hughes who was a student of revival for many years also gained the impression that revivals never occurred in a “ fortuitous fashion”. It would seem that rain is beyond our ability to conquer because it occurs as the result of a complex pattern of ordered weather conditions combining together.
Hughes continues, “The rain of the Spirit is like this. It appears to descend in the most unlikely place but there are predetermining factors behind every visitation. Why should revival have broken out among the Red Indians of North America in the middle of the eighteenth century? Why should it have come to the little Welsh village of Loughor in 1904? Why should the rain of the Spirit have fallen in such great measure in the Hebrides, those lonely islands off the west coast of Scotland? It all looks so accidental, so haphazard, so casual, but I think behind every visitation we would find, could we uncover more of the background, fervent and passionate praying, great agony of heart, endless tears and expectant spirits. The rain of the Spirit falls according to a great design---a divine design.” Devotional notes 9 June 1994.
Robert, I like this illustration because it combines what we know about conditions of revival with the mystery of God’ time and plan, the mystery of patterns that are beyond our ability to harness or control but that are ordered to fit God’s sovereign design.
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